• LilRed

    When I was in school we were taught that America was a melting pot of people from different countries who were welcomed to come here to make a new life for themselves. My dad’s family came over from Germany. They came in New York through Ellis Island. Our last name was spelled Rabel, it was changed to Rebel. They became American citizens and started their new lives here, married, had children, grandchildren and so on. They didn’t insist for a “German Day Parade” or any special rights. They saw themselves as Americans, and embraced their German culture during the holidays and and family gatherings. Now, we have to be PC, and put aside what America stands for so no one group or person gets offended. My opinion is this, you are more than welcomed to come to the USA legally, and become a citizen if you want to. But if you can’t embrace this country, then don’t come and feel free to go back to the country you came from if you feel insulted by our beliefs. I’m tired of hearing about how we need to embrace the beliefs of others so they feel welcomed and loved. This is America, take or leave it, I really don’t care one way or another.

  • Andy Ashlash

    You are banning people because they have an opinion of you based on things you say? When did this become the second grade with your childish behavior?? If you want to say controversial things, then be prepared to take the heat. In addition, you are arrogant and always think you are right regardless of facts that people have. You disregard anyone’s opinion except your own and others that follow you. People listed reasons why they think you are a bigot and racist in the past and you don’t agree, which in your mind qualifies you as being right and them as wrong. It’s pretty pathetic.

    • http://justwatchthegame.com JohnSteigerwald

      I don’t mind the debate. In fact I love it, or I wouldn’t be typing on this keyboard right now. You can disagree with me all you want and I’ll defend what I said and you cam blame me for never admitting I’m wrong. That’s fine, but why would I put up with someone calling me any name, much less a racist?

      Here’s the definition of racism:
      Belief that some races of men are by nature superior to others.
      …also discrimination of others based on that belief.

      I know I don’t believe that and I know you know that I don’t believe that. So, disagree with me all you want. Call me a racist and I hit the trash button and you’ll have to get a new screen name.

      If people would debate the issues a little more before going for the “racist” card, everybody would be a lot better off. I’ve never made a statement in my life based on the opinion that one race is by nature superior to another and I’m not going to allow you to make the claim while you’re hiding behind your computer.

      • Tim

        WTAE effectively called you a racist when they banned you from a call in show for racist comments. Could be on reason people think that you are a racist.

        • http://justwatchthegame.com JohnSteigerwald

          WTAE banned me from a show because of the REACTION to what I said. They NEVER accused me of making a racist comment and the news director asked Guy Junker what I said AFTER she told him not to invite me on for a while. Typical courageous local news move. There is no way what I said could be construed as racism by any rational person. They may have valid disagreements or have good reason to believe that I shouldn’t have said it, but only someone with an agenda could say that what I said was an indication that I believe that one race us naturally superior to another. That’s racism.

          • howard

            I don’t think you’re a racist, but you could be deemed as a race baiter, which I am starting to think I agree with. It’s not the posts, it just the way the posts spiral and some of the comments you make. They are starting to strike me as someone who’s only agenda is to argue or be controversial. That’s what race baiters do. It’s juvenile.

          • http://justwatchthegame.com JohnSteigerwald

            What’s juvenile is being unable to have a discussion about race without using the racist card.

          • Bunk Moreland

            Conversations like this make me thankful beyond words that my children will grow up in a generation after this one. The ignorance, paranoia, and overall waste of time in these discussions are mind-boggling.

          • http://justwatchthegame.com JohnSteigerwald

            I have to wonder about someone who wastes time complaining about what he considers a waste of time.

          • howard

            It’s juvenile to make posts about race to stir the pot, and to inevitably make an off handed fox news retread statement about muslims, and then hide behind some self serving defense of your racial related cred. You choose to bring up race. You choose to argue about it. You in turn need to get use to being called a racist. It’s what you want, otherwise you wouldn’t make a post about multiculturalism and let it devolve into a discussion about race, and your insistence that it’s a non issue for you.

          • http://justwatchthegame.com JohnSteigerwald

            Everything in a blog is meant to stir the pot to some degree. Are you saying that anyone who brings up the subject of race is a racist? How moronic is that? It should never be discussed? It is very much an issue for me. That’s why I devoted a chapter to it in my book called “The Soft Bigotry of Low Expectations.” When the leaders of the major countries in Europe come out and denounce the multi-cultural movement, I think it’s interesting and a pefectlyt legitimate subject for a blog. And you’re right. I CHOOSE to bring up race and I’ll choose to bring it up in the future because I’m not afraid of being called a racist by people like you who don’t know the meaning of the word. Eric Holder hasn’t been right about too many things but he was right when he said this:

            “Though this nation has proudly thought of itself as an ethnic melting pot, in things racial we have always been and continue to be, in too many ways, essentially a nation of cowards,” Holder said at the Justice Department. “It is an issue we have never been at ease with and given our nation’s history this is in some ways understandable.”

            He sure as hell wasn’t talking about me. Was he talking about you?

            Could Thomas Sowell be talking about you here :

            “For people on the left, however, blacks are trophies or mascots, and must therefore be put on display. Nowhere is that more true than in politics.

            The problem with being a mascot is that you are a symbol of someone else’s significance or virtue. The actual well-being of a mascot is not the point.

            Liberals all across the country have not hesitated to destroy black neighborhoods in the name of “urban renewal,” often replacing working-class neighborhoods with upscale homes and pricey businesses— neither of which the former residents can afford.

            In academia, lower admissions standards for black students is about having them as a visible presence, even if mismatching them with the particular college or university produces high dropout rates.

            The black students who don’t make it are replaced by others, and when many of them don’t make it, there are still more others.

            The point is to have black faces on campus, as mascots symbolizing what great people there are running the college or university.

            Many, if not most, of the black students who do not make it at big-name, high-pressure institutions are perfectly qualified to succeed at the normal range of colleges and universities.

            Most white students would also punch out if admitted to schools for which they don’t have the same qualifications as the other students.

            But nobody needs white mascots.
            Various empirical studies have indicated that blacks succeed best at institutions where there is little or no difference between their qualifications and the qualifications of the other students around them.

            This is not rocket science but it is amazing how much effort and cleverness have gone into denying the obvious.

            A study by Professor Richard Sander of the UCLA law school suggests that there may be fewer black lawyers as a result of “affirmative action” admissions to law schools that are a mismatch for the individuals admitted.

            Leaping to the defense of black criminals is another common practice among liberals who need black mascots. Most of the crimes committed by black criminals are committed against other blacks. But, again, the actual well-being of mascots is not the point.

            Politicians who use blacks as mascots do not hesitate to throw blacks to the wolves for the benefit of the teachers’ unions, the green zealots whose restrictions make housing unaffordable, or people who keep low-price stores like Wal-Mart out of their cities.

            Using human beings as mascots is not idealism. It is self-aggrandizement that is ugly in both its concept and its consequences.”

          • howard

            Good for you. You can quote black people, and it makes you feel good about yourself. For the record, I never called you a racist, but did point out how you can be perceived at the very least as a race baiter. So you are definitely confusing what i said with your own sensitivities. You don’t always talk as intelligently about the subject as you think you do, and what I said is how quickly the posts in these discussions devolve, and you go a long with it.

          • http://justwatchthegame.com JohnSteigerwald

            I have no idea what your last sentence means and I didn’t just quote black people. I quoted Dr. Thomas Sowell, an expert on economics and culture who has researched the history of blacks in America and has forgotten more about what constitutes a racist and what doesn’t than you will ever know. And that’s all you got out of that piece that the writer is black? Sad. Maybe you can adopt him as a mascot.A white writer couldn’t get away with writing what he writes. You want to know why? He’d be accused of being a racist. If that piece that I linked to had been written by a white writer YOU would have called him a racist. His books should be required reading in those city schools where white liberals like you do a wonderful job of keeping blacks “in their place.”

          • Tim

            John, your standard for racism is in my mind racist. According to your standard it would be unfair to call a guy racist who goes around calling President Obama the n-word unless you can prove that he believes black people are geneticaly inferior. He might not come out and say it he just uses the n-word frequently. Your standard gives way too much leeway to racists.

            The fact is people know a racist when the see one and a lot of people have their mind made up about you.

          • http://justwatchthegame.com JohnSteigerwald

            A lot of people are dead wrong. A person who uses the N word and does so as a way to illustrate that he considers all blacks to be beneath him would be a racist. Your post is just more proof that the word lost its meaning a long time ago. Bill Maher said Bill O’Reilly’s injterview with Obama was racist because O’Reilly asked him “If he knew football.” More proof that “the fact is” exactly the opposite of what you claim and you proved it. Most people DON’T know a racist when they see one. It’s gotten to the point that if you don’t agree with the liberal victimhood mentality when it comes to blacks, you’re called a racist.

          • Tim

            I realize intellectual honesty isn’t your strong suit, but you should at least try to get your facts straight. Bill Maher didn’t say it was racist. Hooman Majd, an Iranian-American, said it was bigoted. Maher didn’t pick up on it until he mentioned it. That is why Fox News has a nearly all white audience, because their commetators pander to racists and make minorities feel marginalized. Majd was pointing out that O’Reilly would not have asked a white President that question the way he did and I agree with him.

          • http://justwatchthegame.com JohnSteigerwald

            I’m a little tired of your insults. I enjoy debating the issues with you but you don’t get to call me a racist, or a liar. If you actually think that O’Reilly’s question about football is an indication that he is racist, you have ZERO credibility on the issue. Hitler was a racist. George Wallace was a racist. You still have never given an example of anything that I said that qualifies me a racist. And you won’t be intimating that I am one on this blog anymore.

          • howard

            Bill Maher was incorrect for calling O’Reilly a racist. He was correct in calling him a dick. Your standards are confusing and self-congratulatory. The assumption that all I got from your response is that the writer is black is wrong. I am putting the actual quote aside because I feel that you site black conservatives as proof of your racial cred, much like your insistence in pointing out your support of Kordell Stewart. I think it makes you feel good about yourself, and in essence I think that is a soft racism. It’s kind of like someone saying “but some of my best friends are black” I don’t feel that race can’t be discussed honestly and intelligently, and YOU have no basis to ASSUME what my opinion of anything will be. You’re making quite a leap in your assumptions based on what I’ve actually said, and in essence proving my point for me. When it comes to intelligent discussion of race, you’re not ready for prime time.

          • http://justwatchthegame.com JohnSteigerwald

            This coming from a guy who called me a race baiter for having the nerve to discuss race on my blog. I point out my support of Kordell Stewart because a racist (a person who considers one race superior to another) would not risk his reputation and his career defending a black person (for 10 years) and put up with being called a nigger lover and a faggot. And if you think that that is a case of “some of my best friends are black” then you have no right judging anybody’s ability to discuss race. I’m proud of the fact that I went on the radio in the deep south in 1975 and called for an airlift of calendars with the century circled in support of Ernie Banks, who was denied access to the golf courses in Lafayette, La. That also cost me a job. And it took a little more guts than it it takes for you to exalt yourself by having the balls to call me a race baiter on my little blog. I feel very strongly about how the fear of being called a racist is preventing intelligent conversations about race and I won’t let that fear prevent me from saying what I think. That’s why I said what I said about Mike Haywood. I knew there was a good chance it would cost me a job on that show but I thought it needed to be said and I still think I was right and will never apologize. I quote Thomas Sowell, (a former Marxist, by the way) because he makes more sense than any writer I’ve ever read and when he speaks the truth about how liberal policies have stifled the progress of blacks in America, race card players like you can’t accuse him of being against those feel good policies because he’s a racist. You can, and will, of course, accuse me of being a racist for having the same opinion. You don’t have the intellectual capacity to understand how a white person who doesn’t disagree with your self-exalting views could NOT be a racist. I’d debate you in prime time and kick your ass.

          • howard

            You wouldn’t and won’t. That’s number 1. Number 2. i didn’t call you a racist, and in your assertion of Mike Haywood, I agreed that calling you a racist was out of line, and was the first one on here to point to the definition of racism in your defense.. 3. Stop congratulating yourself. You want to talk about race, move the discussion forward. Are you capable of that? Are you capable to have the capacity to be more than a mocking bird? My original point, and the one that is lost on you because of your over sensitivity is that you had a valid topic that devolved into something completely different. You have the power to stop it, you don’t. Many of these posts start interestingly enough but then become something else altogether. I didn’t play a race card, and I do have the BALLS to call you a race baiter, because in the evolution of these conversations, that is how you come off to me. That’s my opinion, and the one that I am more than entitled to have. Sorry I am somehow missing your “genius” here. I felt the same when I read your book. It came off a little too self congratulatory in this department. Sorry. It’s how I see it. But you win. You called me a liberal. The original sin. That’s where you lose all your credibility to me.

          • http://justwatchthegame.com JohnSteigerwald

            Of course I would. And would. You call it congratulating myself. I call it defending myself. I thought the story about Ernie Banks was interesting. Kind of a history lesson. It wasn’t meant to be self congratulatory. Just a story. You may not have called me a racist but others have. Other than trying to give examples from my past that would indicate that I’m not a racist, what’s my defense? “No, I’m not?” Calling someone racist is a serious thing. It’s lumping me in with George Wallace and Adolf Hitler and lots of people in between and if defending myself means you think that I’m overly sensitive, tough. I guess I’m trying to make the point that my actions should speak a lot louder than misinterpreted/misrepresented words on a blog. Laying a little Thomas Sowell and his unique perspective on you is moving forward in my book.His books should be required reading in every urban school district in America. I don’t see the evolution that you see. I think I’ve been pretty consistent and I’m reacting to accusations. Since neither of us is credible to the other on this issue, what’s the point in discussing it? Game over.
            (You may be just a tad overly sensitive to the liberal thing, by the way.)

          • howard

            Fair enough. You win anyways. I bought your book and read it. And continue to read this blog, thanks for the debate.

          • http://justwatchthegame.com JohnSteigerwald

            Thanks for buying the book. I’m working on Book II now. One chapter written—about playing (and batting) in a Pirates intra squad game.

          • howard

            I look forward to it.

          • http://justwatchthegame.com JohnSteigerwald

            Good. That.s one sale.

          • howard

            Nah…I’ll just pick it up at the library. Socialism at work 😉

          • http://justwatchthegame.com JohnSteigerwald

            The library has to buy it. That was one of the most amazing things about writing a book. The idea that it was actually in libraries.

          • Tim

            Really? The waht did you mean on the Tim Benz show when you said that if they take you off the air its an admission that what you said was racist?

            http://www.1059thex.com/cc-common/podcast/single_podcast.html?podcast=interviews.xml

            (Jan 4 13:00 mark)

            Not as easy to lie as it used to be is it?

  • Isteve Roissy

    China is very homogeneous and run by old Chinese males. They are also very culturally conservative and have an attitude of racial superiority. Based on all that, I would guess that CNN, the NY Times, colege professors and the American left in general would be quite pessimistic about China’s ability to succeed and thrive in this century.

    • Mike

      China has very serious demographic issues. Due to their one child policy they will eventually have an aging society with not even working aged people to take care of them. Plus they have a male/female ratio imbalance. Good luck finding a date.

      • http://justwatchthegame.com JohnSteigerwald

        I’ve always wondered how the feminists feel about societies that promote the aborting of females. Would they be in favor of banning sonograms if women started aborting females the way they were doing it in India. How would they feel about a woman who had, say, three consecutive abortions because she already had a daughter and wanted a son.

        • Mike

          These aren’t the things that keep me up at night but I’d assume they’d be against a government policy that promotes it. And if a feminist is in favor of abortion on demand then she can’t be upset how a woman chooses to use that right no matter how distasteful.

          • http://justwatchthegame.com JohnSteigerwald

            Yep.

  • Mario4Prez

    Then you and I agree on principles, just not symantics. I think it is okay to celebrate your culture and heritage as long as you try to assimilate. I do think that the supposed lack of Muslim assimilation is overblown by the right-wing media, but it is what it is I suppose.

  • rob s

    the reason they’re not integrating into france has less to do with religion and more to do with the impact of french colonialism.

    france left countries like tunisia, algeria and morocco in shambles after the french colonial empire. these immigrants have an inherent disdain for what france did to their countries. they have no intention of integrating.

    there is absolutely no relevance between france’s situation and what the conservative xenophobes believe the US situation to be.

    • http://justwatchthegame.com JohnSteigerwald

      If they have disdain for France, why the hell are they living there and accepting government welfare money. How about staying home?

  • Andy Ashlash

    Racist example – the Michael Haywood blog. Bigot – Barney Frank blog. The one you apologized for after people called you out. Look if you can’t take criticism after you post blogs that are controversial, then don’t post.

    • http://justwatchthegame.com JohnSteigerwald

      What I said about Haywood makes me a racist? Maybe in your opinion but if saying what I said about that situation qualifies me as a racist then the term has lost all it’s meaning. Why can’t you disagree with what I said without claiming that I said it based on the opinion that white people are the superior race. You don’t even know what a racist is and I was right about Haywood.

  • Mario4Prez

    You say assimilation was the goal for the 20th century. Sorry, but that’s not true. Why do we have Little Italy? Chinatown? Those are examples of muliculturalism. Back then, some nativists thought we should restrict immigration from those countries. In fact, ALL immigration from China was banned for half a century. Such a shame that a vocal minority is still calling for the same thing today.

    • http://justwatchthegame.com JohnSteigerwald

      It doesn’t mean eliminating all remnants of your culture. It means NOT expecting the existing culture to change to accomodate yours.

    • Mike V.

      These Chinese don’t worship in a violent religion.

    • Paul

      Just to clarify, Mario. It people like YOU that are in the minority.

  • Mike V.

    The Muslim question is always an interesting one. The problem these countries have is they allowed a bunch of them in. The more you let in, the more you get because they breed like rabbits. It is only going to get worse in countries like France and Germany because the Muslims breed faster than the rest of the population and over time they will overrun the population.

    American immigrant groups traditionally struggled early on, but found their way into American society. They kept their religions, but adopted the language and customs. Language usually takes three generations for a immigrant group, but customs come much quicker. Muslims do not want to learn the language of these countries and want to change their customs. When they can’t do that, they will ultimately resort to violence like they do everywhere else.

    I guess my question to those who think Muslims are easily integrated into a society would be, where in the world have a large number of Muslims immigrated peacefully? It doesn’t happen. As Islam spreads around the world, violence spreads.

    • http://justwatchthegame.com JohnSteigerwald

      Where have the Muslims shown up in large numbers and made things better?

      • howard

        Deerborn, Michigan. 33.4% of the population. Your mistaking religious faith with Islamic extremism. Fundamental Christian extremism doesn’t make anything better either.

      • Chipped Ham

        But, but…..Islam is a religion of peace. Kaboom!!!

      • Mike from Monoeville

        Egypt

        • Mike V.

          Wait until the Muslim Brotherhood takes over in a few years.

  • Andy Ashlash

    I thought the article was a joke until I saw it was from yahoo. And you wonder why people think you are a racist and bigot.

    • http://justwatchthegame.com JohnSteigerwald

      So the heads of Germany UK, France and Italy are bigots. You looke at who provided the quotes instead of who spoke them? Got any other examples of my racism and bigotry, because if you don’t, I’m not going to allow you to refer to me as either. You’ll be headed to Trash city.

      • Gaylin Howards

        Whoa, you are going to ban someone that disagrees with you. That’s ridiculous. It doesn’t matter if those people provided quotes, you provided the article and went along with it. Also, if I can recall, you made several comments about Barney Frank being gay that several gay people did not like. After someone threatened to call WTAE, you apologized. You knew you were wrong and those people had the right to call you a bigot.

        • http://justwatchthegame.com JohnSteigerwald

          Making a gay joke makes someone a bigot? I’m going to ban anyone who calls me a racist. The term lost its meaning a long time ago. Look it up and if you think I’ve ever said or done anything that qualifies me as a racist, give some examples. Disagree with what I said about the Mike Haygood situation, but you don’t get to accuse me of forming my opinion based on my belief that the white race is superior to the black race. Not in here, anyway.

        • Jim Gott

          -What’s wrong with saying something about Barney Frank being gay? If gay people can’t handle a spade being called a spade, that’s not anybody’s problem but theirs. Does this comment make me a racist?

          • Jim Gott

            Or a bigot I should say…

      • rob s

        actually, berlusconi is a bigot. he’s also blatantly corrupt and a pedophile.

        • http://justwatchthegame.com JohnSteigerwald

          I’ll take your word for it.

  • VinceL

    My grandfather came here legally in 1921. He did not march in the streets raising a fist and a foreign flag.He did not have lawyers offering a chance at lawsuits.He realized it was his responsibility to adapt to his new country-not the other way around.”Out of many,one.”

  • franji1

    Inegrated society or Segregated society? Would it have been good if the Jim Crowe laws would be followed voluntarily? Separate but equal?

    We are all American by birth or by choice. Do we really want SEGREGATION back, or to even a worse degree???

  • rob s

    …coming from a supporter of “socialist” healthcare and, by conservative US standards, grotesque unemployment benefits (the unemployed in france are entitled to 75% of their previous year’s salary)

    what an enigma!

  • metalslam

    Mike , where exactley does it say black & or african. Typical left wing response , when in doubt bring black or race up & then blame other side immediately I believe thats protocol #2

  • Ryan

    Nice! Normally I don’t want to follow the French in anything but this is OK with me. If I decide to move to France I should expect to learn French and adapt. If I can’t or won’t do that then why move. People coming to America should be expected to speak English and adapt to our culture.

    • Mike V.

      I agree with immigrants having to speak English. It does take about three generations though. The first generation will not learn it but encourage the next generation to learn it. The second generation will speak both languages. The third generation won’t be able to speak anything other than English.

      Since this is a majority sports blog, here is a good example. Mark Sanchez is taking Spanish lessons to make himself more marketable to the Hispanic population. He speaks almost no Spanish other than the little he learned in high school. His father was bilingual. His grandfather immigrated to the USA and never learned English. Most immigrant groups go through this cycle.

      • http://justwatchthegame.com JohnSteigerwald

        As they should.

  • Keith

    The failure of Multiculturalism is not a promotion of racism. It is a belief that that multiple cultures that are polar opposites cannot sustain a healthy society. A society cannot achieve success if the multi-cultures continually undermine each other fundamentally. We Americans value freedom….. that is the thread of our society that binds the many cultures that coexist in the United States… when that thread is threatened by a perceived extreme culture and allowed to fester… then the failure or our Multicultural society is inevitable. These so called counter cultures can be of any ethnic group including Christian. Another result can be that Society needs adjustment and the counter cultures are the catalyst for that change. The resistance is for fear of change… but change is inevitable… as is evolution…but so is devolution. Its a thin line.

    • http://justwatchthegame.com JohnSteigerwald

      If a politician would run on the promise of suspended all immigration from Yemen, Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt, and five or six other Middle Eastern countries for 10 years, he would win in a landslide. He’d get my vote.

  • Mike from Monroeville

    You’re right. We never should have let those black people emigrate to our country.

    • http://justwatchthegame.com JohnSteigerwald

      Brilliant.

      • Mike from Monroeville

        Well what do you that that stuff sounds like??

      • Chad Farthouse

        Since the United States is a multicultural society by definition, unlike those European countries, where would the “death of multiculturalism” leave us then?

        • http://justwatchthegame.com JohnSteigerwald

          Multiculturalism refers to the overemphasis on celebrating and promoting a culture at the expense of assimilation. At rhe end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th the goal was assimilation. Political correctness has taken over and now you can’t say the word Christmas within a hundred yards of a public school without being sued.

          • Chad Farthouse

            Whose goal was assimilation? Why don’t you ask the Native Americans what they think of assimilation? Why does a self-proclaimed Agnostic give a rat’s ass about Christmas anyway? It’s a holiday based on a fairy tale, it ain’t that important. Why do you always cry the blues about what has “happened” to it? It is now just an excuse for your beloved corporations to sell us a bunch of crap made in China that nobody really needs anyway. God bless us everyone.

          • http://justwatchthegame.com JohnSteigerwald

            Happy Valentine’s Day. (How do they get away with that in the schools, by the way?)

          • Paul

            Those stupid corporations…making stuff people buy. Jerks. Right ,Chad?

          • http://justwatchthegame.com JohnSteigerwald

            That stupid corporation that made this computer I’m typing on and the evil corporation that built the truck that brought it to that evil corporation Best Buy where I bought it.

  • sydelyne

    Well, I guess I can forget about reading this blog ’til football season starts up again. It’s so much easier to get this crap from Fox News. See ya when training camp starts up again, John.

    • http://justwatchthegame.com JohnSteigerwald

      Sorry. That’s what we do here. Have a nice Summer.

    • Paul

      Get it from Fox News? I got the information from the Prime Ministers of Germany, England and now France. What’s Fox have to do with it?

      • http://justwatchthegame.com JohnSteigerwald

        If Fox news ran video of Auchwitz in1944, the Fox haters would be holocaust deniers. How stupid is it to focus on who replayed the quotes instead of who originated them?